4. All Christians Are on Level Ground

Jesus continues:

And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ (Matthew 23:9–10).

Surely the spirit here at least is, like in the Sermon on the Mount, don’t do your alms to be seen by men. Don’t fast to be seen by men. Don’t pray to be seen by men. That doesn’t mean don’t fast, and don’t give alms, and don’t pray. It means your motive shouldn’t be that even when you do those in public to get recognized for them. This is a warning to the council of elders. It’s a warning to pastors. It’s a warning to people like me who have a letter after my name, a degree after my name — and a lot of you do — to want people to recognize that.

I mean, I’ll just show you how far I’ve taken this. I have a diploma from Wheaton College, a diploma from Fuller Seminary, and a diploma from the University of Munich. They’re all in a drawer. I’ve never hung them on any wall in my life. In fact, I have never taken my degree from Munich out of its tube. It came from Germany in a tube. That’s not true. I took it out to see that I got it. I put it back in the tube, and it’s in the bottom file drawer where it’s been for the last 25 years.

Now, that’s nothing to brag about, and please don’t feel guilty if you’ve got all your diplomas hanging on your wall. Of course, you could be a lot humbler than I am. I mean, there are strategies to get the praise of men besides hanging diplomas on your wall. I could be writing books because I love the praise of men, right? You don’t hang your diplomas up. You just write books and sign them. Don’t don’t put me in any kind of saint category here. Just know this text is a warning to all of us to beware of wanting to be stroked as a leader, but rather we are to be servants. We’re to lower ourselves, get down there, and work in the nursery, teach Sunday school classes, and do the things that the saints do. First Timothy 2:5 says:

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus . . .

We are not the mediators. There is one mediator, and a saint, a priest of God, can go through the one high priest to God.

Manhood and Womanhood

Here’s a little parenthesis on manhood and womanhood. I hadn’t intended to do this, but this may be good. One of the reasons they’re such a hubbub about whether women can be elders or not — we don’t have women elders here — is that it feels to many, depending on the church they’re a part of, like you’re excluding women from significant ministry.

I’m trying to develop the mindset that says just the opposite, namely, these poor men have to meet hour after hour until 11:00 p.m. or 12:00 a.m. at night trying to figure out parking problems and church discipline problems, and the women are out there saving souls and healing the sick, I hope. Because a woman is a priest to God filled with the Holy Spirit with immediate access to Almighty God, and when she puts her hand on a sick person and prays for that person, God Almighty can heal. That’s ministry, and why would she ever want to sit on the council of elders when she could be doing that?

Now, maybe she would because she feels like, “I’ve got gifts of leadership and competency,” so we have to deal with the other levels too. But I just want to get it out of our heads that a really exciting, explosive, supernatural, people-changing ministry is the province of a few guys. That’s just crazy. We must get that out of our heads and mobilize women and mobilize men to avail themselves of the one mediator, Jesus Christ, to do mighty work in the city and in marriages.

Revelation 1:6 is explicit on the priesthood idea:

[Christ] made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever.

5. God Ordains Leaders

Principle number five: not inconsistent with this equality of the priesthood of the believer — and “don’t have a father”, and “don’t have a rabbi”, and “don’t have a leader because you have one rabbi”, and “one father”, and “one leader” — God has nevertheless ordained the existence of officers in the church, some of whom are charged under Christ with the leadership of the church. We must not go the Plymouth Brethren route.

Now, I may not know the Brethren well enough. Any Brethren among us? Okay. Now, correct me here. Just help me, because I probably put my foot in my mouth here. There are all different kinds of Brethren. But now, there are no appointed preaching elders or clergy, correct? Tell me. Just give me a little one minute summary of the way leadership happens in the Brethren, any of you.

There is an eldership

Okay there is a body of elders. On a Sunday morning, the congregation would generally look to them for a word of exhortation?

Not necessarily.

So it could be the whole group. But more and more you’re saying there are elders. Is that because of a sense of biblical pressure or just practicality or both?

I guess it’s just out of practicality. It’s not very spiritual.

Well, in reality the Holy Spirit does that sort of thing in any group of people. In any small group or large group, there will rise to the surface those who are more or less gifted at helping people with the Word.

Now, what I was getting at when I said Brethren — and maybe my ignorance here should just keep it general — is that there are groups who would tend to argue that the priesthood of all believers minimizes the role of leaders, which this group here says there are elders in that group and so that’s not the case with the way I was thinking about it. But if you know of any group like that, these texts here I don’t think will allow us to say all believers are priests, don’t have anybody over anybody else, and therefore there shouldn’t be any officers or anybody with any authority in the church. These texts point the other direction, so let’s look at them.

Influence in the Church

First Timothy 5:17 says:

Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.

I would find that to be a biblical impulse pushing a group to say that there are some who rule or govern. That’s a little bit of a loaded word, isn’t it, rule? We could probably find a better translation than that — maybe something like “govern” or “oversee”. And some of those work hard at logō kai didaskalia. I don’t know if preaching is the right translation there or not. It just says “word and teaching”. Clearly, some of those exercised their governing office as teachers, not all. And not all in that group have the same role in teaching, though they’re all, we will see, to be apt to teach. But not all labor is hard in preaching and teaching.

I find my job description right here at Bethlehem. That’s who I am. I’m one of these people doing “word and teaching,” and I’m expected to work hard at it. I’m doing this seminar because that’s my job. I preach on Sunday mornings because that’s my job. That’s who I am right there. I find myself in that work. I’m only one of the elders. I have one vote along with 17 other guys. I’m not the chairman of that group. A better name for me than senior pastor would probably be preaching elder, or something like that, but we aren’t picky here and we just go with the flow of tradition. But de facto, that’s who I am. I am one among 18. I just get in the fray of the discussion like everybody else, and when we vote and talk, I don’t guide the thing at that point. I vote along with everybody else. I’m assigned to do various things and bring back reports and whatnot.

I do probably exert more influence in the church than anybody. I’m not naive about that. Because I talk more than anybody. I’m talking here more than anybody. On Sunday I’ll talk more than anybody. I talk to more people than anybody else, so I do have more influence than anybody else at this church, except probably a few women who pray.

With influence you have to be careful. Influence, if you take it to mean that which sways a person’s views, prayer may be doing more than my teaching ever has. I must be very careful when I say I exert more influence here than ever. I probably better qualify that by saying, as far as the influence of teaching goes I suppose my influence is greater, but it may not be such that my agency in the kingdom is bringing about more changes in people’s lives than some unbelievably powerful prayer warriors here.

Leaders for Instruction and Teaching

I’m just continuing on with texts that show that there are leaders in spite of equality. First Thessalonians 5:12–13 says:

We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you . . .

There it is. They have charge over you for instruction. That’s pointing out that there are leaders in the church, and Paul means it to be that way. Here’s another text in this regard. Hebrews 13:7 says:

Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.

And again, a few verses later in Hebrews 13:17, it says:

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Clearly there are leaders in the church according to this text, not just everybody has the same office or role. Then lastly on point five, consider Acts 20:28:

Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers . . .

Here’s a group of people that came down from Ephesus gathered on the beach, and he says, “You have been made overseers to shepherd the Church of God, which he purchased with his own blood.” He thinks of shepherds and sheep. Now, I’m a shepherd, but I am surely a sheep. I am a sheep before I am a shepherd. To me, to be a sheep is vastly more important than to be a shepherd. Can you think of a text in Luke that says something like? Be glad that you’re a sheep before you’re glad that you’re a shepherd? Do you know what text I’m thinking about?

It’s in Luke 10:20 when the 70 come back and they’re thrilled because God worked, and Jesus says, “I saw Satan fall like lightning in your ministry.” I think that’s what he means. Yet he says, “Do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you . . .” (Luke 10:20). In other words, don’t rejoice that you have a powerful ministry effect. Then he says, “But rejoice that your names are written in heaven . . .” (Luke 10:20).

I tell you, to be the sheep of God, to be one of his lambs, is 10,000 times more precious than to be a pastor. That’s my ticket to heaven, not pastoring. To have been a chosen lamb, rescued from the thicket and the wolves, is my joy.

6. The Court of Appeals Is the Gathered Church

Principle number six: under Christ and his Word, the decisive court of appeal in the local church in deciding matters of disagreement is the gathered church assembly. Now, here my Baptistic colors are showing. This is implied, first, in the fact that the leaders are not to lead by coercion, but by persuasion and free consent (1 Peter 5:3). Second, it’s implied in the fact that elders may be censored. There’s some process. Elders are not God. There is a way to correct elders, and to rebuke elders, and to remove elders. Third, it is implied in the fact that Matthew 18:15–20 and 1 Corinthians 5:4 depict the gathered church assembly as the decisive court of appeal in matters of discipline.

Now, those are my three pointers toward congregational church government. Here I say pointers and not proofs just because frankly I don’t want to die on this hill. I really don’t. I’m going to live on this hill, but I’d rather not die on a different hill. There’s a lot of hills I’d die on, believe me. I would die on the hill of the foreknowledge of God, but I’m not sure I would die on the hill of whether or not a body of elders can excommunicate somebody. We don’t excommunicate by eldership. We excommunicate by the body. We admit through the action of the body and we evict or dismiss, either happily or unhappily, through the action of the body.

Now, the arguments I have here are the ones I’m able to pull together. The last one seems to be the most compelling to me. I’ll read the texts that point in this direction, and they move from the weak to the strong I think.

So I exhort the elders among you . . . shepherd the flock of God that is among you . . . not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock (1 Peter 5:1–3).

There’s just a spirit there that points towards the church needing to be excited about this leadership, and therefore there needs to be a certain kind of interaction there that might open the door to congregational life, that is, congregational approval. But that doesn’t prove anything as far as the governance goes.

An Apostolic Delegate

Let’s look at the next one. First Timothy 5:19–20 says:

Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.

Now, he’s talking to Timothy here. Timothy is an apostolic delegate, you might say, or legate, or representative in Ephesus. Here’s where your Episcopalians would say you have a pointer towards the monarchical bishop. You have a Timothy over a city who is to discipline elders in churches. There they would say, “See, you have a bishop. You have a district bishop.” Well, it’s possible. That’s why I say I just, I don’t want to wage war on these issues. There are more important issues to wage war on.

I think you have to decide what you see here and then begin to structure your church accordingly. Or if you don’t have a church and you’re a lay person and you want to align with the church, then you have to think through which kind of group you are going to align if you want to be in a more biblical group. But I don’t think we should assume that Timothy has an ongoing office that should be reduplicated in every district, but rather that this points towards some kind of discipline for elders.

He says, “Those who continue in sin, rebuke” (1 Timothy 5:20). Somebody has to have the capacity to rebuke one of these men. And then he says to do this “in the presence of all.” Now there, is that all the people or is it all the elders? And then he adds “so that the rest will also be fearful of sinning.” That sounds like elders. The rest will be fearful of sinning.

There at least has to be a structure in place, whatever it is, so that erring elders can be corrected and if necessary removed if they don’t change.

Could it be that Diotrephes had missed that congregational rule?

I had never thought about that as a possible pointer towards congregational life. So you’re saying he’s assuming a kind of role that he shouldn’t? Give us the text on that and we can all check it out. It’s in 3 John 10. Check that out. Think that through as another possible way. Any other evidence that you have that might point in this direction, you can share with each other.

Tell It to the Church

Let me read the last one that I have. This one to me is the one that compels me, these two texts. Matthew 18:15-20 says:

If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church.

See, now that’s where we stake a lot here at Bethlehem on why we do it the way we do it. He says, “Tell it to the church.” It seems like this is the disciplinary dimension of excommunication, which is what’s going to happen here in the next step. He continues:

If he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector (Matthew 18:17).

In other words, remove him from the rolls and treat him as though he were not a Christian anymore. He says, “Tell it to the church.” There are many churches who interpret that to mean the church as represented by the ruling council, because it is just so dirty. It’s just a dirty mess. Frankly, I would love to give it that meaning. I would love to do all of our disciplinary work at Bethlehem. I think we would do it better. I think we would do it more quickly. I think we would do it on the people we ought to do it if we didn’t have to time it so that you hit congregational meetings and you have to be so sensitive and do it with sensitivity to being sued.

You have to handle these things with such care today. How are you going to get the congregation to act on somebody who is an adulterer or whatever? If I felt free to give the word church in this passage the meaning “church expressed through its duly appointed officers,” that would simplify our life a lot. I would respect you if you made that choice.

Did the apostles constitute a church at this point?

The point is being made that when these words were spoken, Jesus was addressing his disciples. Did they constitute a church, and if not, who was he talking to? Well, in his own time I would guess ecclesia would be the loose band of his own, but that’s a good question. How was this to be obeyed before Pentecost or before the constitution of local churches? I’m not sure. What would your answer be?

I think they did constitute a church

Okay, and I don’t have any problem with that. They ate the Lord’s Supper together. I mean maybe the way to think of it is as Jesus and John the Baptist were baptizing, a new people of God were being called out. I don’t know if this is the way you think, but this is the way I think. When John the Baptist comes on the scene, he looks at the people of God, Israel, and he knows these people are apostates by and large, and he says, “I’m going to assemble a new people of God, and I’m going to do it with a new sign, not circumcision. We’re going to baptize here.”

So he starts baptizing and the Jews just go ballistic. They say, “Who do you think you are? We have Abraham as our father. We don’t need this sign.” He says, “God can raise up children for Abraham from stones if he wants to. This is the new messianic people. We’re assembling.” Jesus comes along. He continues that. The sign of baptism continues on. At least we could say this is a church in the making, if it’s not a full-fledged, organized church. Now, what would the implication of that be with the issue of eldership and discipline?

If one of the disciples had these problems, they would carry out these things. But we don’t know how many disciples might’ve been present at that time.

Yeah, or what would constitute a church in that setting. I’m not sure either.

Yeah. I don’t think that the apostles then constituted a church, because this was prior to Pentecost.

The point is being made that the belief is that this ecclesia here in Matthew 18:17 is the church of the New Covenant, the church post-Pentecost, the church created by the Holy Spirit, and that they didn’t consist of a church here. I think that we just have to realize the flexibility of the term. There was an ecclesia in the Old Testament, but we have in our minds something very particular about the New Testament church, with its officers and its gift of the Holy Spirit. We are baptized into one body by the Spirit. We have all of that in our head when we say church, whereas the word ecclesia has a broader meaning than that. It has an expression here, and an expression in the Old Testament.

God had a people for himself called an ecclesia at every stage along the way ever since Abel at least. But you’re right that as far as the full-blown meaning of church in the New Testament, it’s after Pentecost.

This point is interesting to me because I’m thinking about the Old Testament and Old Testament maturity.

There are so many different ways of handling problems in the Old Testament that fall by the wayside now and I wouldn’t know how to answer that question. There’s so many different structures. For different kinds of sins you would go to priests. For different kinds of sins you’d do one kind of sacrifice. For different kinds of problems you would stone someone. For another kind of problem you put them outside the camp. For another kind of problem you’re unclean for a certain number of days. I mean, it’s just so complex, and thank goodness with the turn in redemptive history and the coming of Christ that many of those things, most of those things, have gone by the side.

When You Are Assembled

Anyway, there’s an argument for congregational church government. Here’s another one:

When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 5:4–5).

It’s as though it’s not just the elders who do this. It’s when the church is assembled that you all together do this act of discipline. For those two texts, and probably others that you could help me with, I would argue the point that the decisive court of appeal in the local church in deciding matters of disagreement is the gathered church assembly. I think that has definite implications about the selection of leadership as well.

7. The Congregational Calls and Dismisses Leaders

Principle number seven: the local congregation therefore should call and dismiss its own leaders. Now, I’m saying that’s implied in the preceding principle. If it’s not, I don’t know where to get it. The local congregation should call and dismiss its own leaders.

Now, in the Episcopal form of church government and in the Presbyterian form of church government, as I’ve asked around besides reading, generally there’s a kind of hybrid thing that goes on here. I’ve asked, “Now can a local presbytery who ordains in the Presbyterian Church do this?” The presbytery ordains, not the local church in the Presbyterian Church. The presbytery, which means presbyters, or elders, from many different churches in the presbytery, ordain. But I don’t think they can unilaterally say, “Now you go to that church, and church, you accept him.” There is an interaction with the local church that the church does some calling there as well.

I don’t know how it is so much with the Episcopal form where a bishop is the key ordaining officer and then appoints a rector or pastor to a local body. I would guess that that local body can also have a say there. Any Episcopalians that can help me with this or anybody that knows the scene?

It depends on the congregation, but yeah, there is some say they have.

What you get the impression is that church government really is a mingling of biblical principles with practical, cultural, historical, and local dynamics. We just need to be honest about that and not absolutize our little systems here, because it’s just not that clear. That’s why there are these different kinds of governance.

Two texts that come to mind going in opposite directions are Titus 1:5, where Paul says, “Appoint elders in each church as I’ve told you.” And then the other direction is Acts 6:3, which says, “Choose from among you men who will do this.” In that case it’s for deacons.

Okay, the two texts he’s pointing out seem to point in different directions just like Timothy. Titus was to appoint elders and all the churches in Crete. Here you had a man functioning like a bishop, who was appointing elders. Then you have Acts 6 where, for the deacons, they say, “Choose from among yourselves . . .” Somehow that had to be orchestrated where the people chose deacons from among themselves to do this particular ministry.

8. Leaders Should Be Gifted and Godly

Principle number eight: the leaders of the church should be people who are spiritually mature and exemplary, gifted for the ministry given to them and having a sense of divine urging and being in harmony with the duly established leadership of the church. Now, that’s a mouthful, and every one of those phrases counts. We wrote this, remember, before we chose any elders or even decided to do elders here at Bethlehem, but we were on our way, and this was to be a guide.

They are to be spiritually mature and exemplary. Here I just started the list from 1 Timothy 3:1–7. We’ll talk about this tomorrow in detail about what the qualifications are. It says, “It is a trustworthy statement that if any man aspires . . .” (1 Timothy 3:1). So there should be some aspiration. It doesn’t have to be expressed. It’s okay to go to a man and say, “Do you find within yourself any aspiration, any desire, any dream that now or someday God might be calling you to serve this church as an elder?” If that’s not there, don’t coerce anybody onto the council. That has to be there. That should be there. God should plant that in a man’s heart.

Then he says, “He desires a noble task. Therefore, an overseer must be above reproach . . .” (1 Timothy 3:1–2). Then he starts the list of 15 qualifications, as I counted them today, in these next verses. There should be spiritually mature, exemplary, qualified leaders.

Titus 1:5–9 is the same thing. Paul says:

This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you — if anyone is above reproach . . .

And then 18 qualifications are listed just to show this same thing. I’m just mentioning the text to show that there should be a giftedness, a qualification. Elders should be gifted and qualified and have divine urging.

The Holy Spirit Appoints Overseers

A few other texts point in the same direction with this giftedness idea. Romans 12:6–8 says:

Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity . . .

There should be a giftedness when it comes to teaching and leading. Or Acts 20:28 says:

Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers . . .

Now, we have to figure out a way in our churches to see how that happens. How does the Holy Spirit do this? I’ve been talking up to this time like, “Well, we set in place this constitution. We did these structures, and we did these things.” And here the text says God did it. Can we say that at Bethlehem? We have 18 men who are elders. Can we say the Holy Spirit made them overseers? We should. We should be able to give an account for how we submitted ourselves in this process and try to design a discerning process that is the Holy Spirit’s way of getting the one whom he wants onto this council. That’s really big.

Surely it will involve huge prayer, fasting, and biblical discernment. He inspired the Bible, and so to follow the Bible is to follow the Holy Spirit. There needs to be on the part of the aspiring elder much prayer and a sense of Holy Spirit compulsion and urging towards, “I sense that someday this will be right for me. I believe that if it is and we have spiritual elders, they’ll discern that and they’ll come together, and then the people will discern that.” In all that mutual, prayerful discerning with prayer and fasting, the Holy Spirit will have put in place his elders.

Somehow that needs to be thought through and worked through. If you’re in a church that isn’t as spiritual as you’d like, teach on texts like this and just plead with the people that we have structures, prayer meetings, and disciplines in this church that will lay ourselves open to the leading of the Holy Spirit in these ways.

Unity of Mind

Philippians 2:2 is a unity text. Paul says:

Complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

Now, that’s why I said at the end of that principle number eight that leaders should be in harmony with the duly established leadership of the church. I know we’re running a risk here, and I’ve been accused of it, so I know it keenly. We’re running a risk of kingdom building, or empire building. If you have a vision of God, of doctrine, of life, of mission, and it’s strong and it’s powerful, you believe it’s biblical, you want to pray for it, you want to cultivate it, and you want to build it, you run the risk of manipulating to get it, right?

If it’s God’s, you don’t have to do that. If it’s God’s, you don’t have to ever do the political thing, and strategize, and do the subtle lunch meetings and little conversations in the corner and all the things where you just make sure what gets said gets said in the right places so that everything is kind of humanly calculated to get these people where you want them, saying what you want them to say. That’s evil.

But on the other hand, I think it’s folly to say, “Oh, what we need on the elder council is people with lots of different theologies, lots of different philosophies of ministry.” That’s chaos. Churches are wounded and hurt year after year because there’s no deep, profound, united leadership in the church that’s saying, “Here’s the vision. Let’s do it.” There’s a balance there.

One of the reasons I drove with all my might for those 10 years for a council of elders where I would be one among 18, or 20, or 15, or whatever, is so that I could build the vision together with them through prayer and study into a group so that if I drop dead, it’s not housed in a man, it’s housed in a body of leaders. I think that’s true today. If I dropped over of a heart attack right now, the elders that we have, and most of them are right here in this room, would not miss a beat as far as how to lead this church, regarding what this church stands for and what the next pastor should have as his passions and so on, if they do a next pastor like this one. They might structure it a different way. But I feel so good at the mission of the church, the philosophy of ministry, and the doctrinal coherence.

And there’s a lot of variety in this church out there in the boondocks and a lot of personality variety on staff and eldership. But as far as theological harmony and philosophy of ministry harmony, there’s a lot of unity at the center. Frankly, I will work hard to see that it stays that way. I hope I don’t work politically to see that it stays that way. I will pray hard. I will preach hard. I will teach hard. I will pour my life out for those elders to help them see what I see, and then they’ll vote and they’ll choose who the next elders will be to put before the people. They won’t be my hand picked people. There will be 18 elders.

The Practice of Appointing Elders

This is something you may have had in your mind as to how we get a nominating slate. We don’t have a nominating committee. Nominating committees are crazy. They are the most powerful group in the church, and they’re usually unfit for it. The leaders of the church should be the people who test the next leaders of the church, but they don’t have the last say. See the difference? They are the spiritually gifted testers. They are a sieve through which you put every candidate for leadership, because they’re the ones who’ve been entrusted with the spiritual leadership. But then once they’ve tested, and talked, and prayed, and met with them, and say, “No, not you,” and, “Yes, you,” they lay them before the people and say, “You approve or disapprove here, and you must have the last say.”

As elders now, we will need about four new elders in the next year. We’ll need about four more minimum because of who’s going off, and we have to have twice as many lay elders as vocational elders. We’re now hard at thinking and praying. We’ve got a list of at least 60 men in this church that we’re saying, “Okay, who Lord?” We’re listening to them and seeking who God may call.

What about the passages that speak about leaders appointing leaders?

There are three of those verses, namely one in Titus where Paul says he should appoint elders in every city (Titus 1:5), and one to Timothy where he should do it in Ephesus (1 Timothy 3:1–7), and then in Acts 14:23 Paul appointed elders in every city. ’ve already given my answer, but let me try to restate it. Those are either apostles getting the church started or the apostolic representative. Timothy and Titus were part of the apostolic band to get the church started in Crete. For example, if you planted a church among the Manica in Guinea, how do you get your first elders? Well, I wouldn’t be opposed to jump-starting a church. How did you do it, David?

We found people who were capable of teaching and we said, “You’re a pastor.”

You said that? Who do you think you are? Well, you are like Paul. That’s who you are. But really, my argument is not that that’s apostolic. There aren’t any apostles today, so we don’t do it that way. But rather, these texts that point towards congregational life and governance are what influence me. I don’t have an absolute proof. Just pointers.

But aren’t you in fact appointing and then it is affirmed by the body?

You could view it that way. The question was, aren’t you in fact appointing and then the body is affirming? We call it recommending. I think that’s the word we use. We recommend them to the body, and then they affirm. You could use the word appoint, but you’re right, the language is slippery there.

I mean, clearly we are exercising a great deal of authority at that point in deciding who will be put before the people, but I think we’re being honest to our principles by saying those people will have the last say so that if this body of elders, these 18 guys, start to slip into some heresy, or some immorality, or some financial shenanigans, and everybody in the church knows this, they can, in our constitution, unseat us all. Go ahead.

Can a recommendation come from the assembly and be added?

It can, I believe. I’m not sure of that. I’d have to go back and read. But I think the way it’s written is that the congregation can almost do anything. Go ahead.

When you recommend, you’re putting forth people who you believe will be chosen?

We don’t expect any losers. Is that what you’re asking? Like saying, “Choose four out of six”? No, no. That’s not what we’re doing. That whole process of having slates of candidates that have multiple candidates for every office I think had this in its favor, it wanted to give more authority to the congregation. But de facto what happened was that people might be forced to put people forward who you think might not be fit and hope that the congregation sees it, but in fact they don’t know them well enough.

The eldership needs to be absolutely certain they’ve probed into these guys’ backgrounds. Nothing is hidden here. The family is functioning, and there’s no financial misappropriations, and there’s no deep-seated anger. I mean these things that in a big church like this the congregation can’t know. It’s just a safety valve to have the congregation say, “Amen.” We’ve done the hard work. Everything is hanging on our approval here, ultimately, as far as whether they’re fit or not.

I think I will not push you beyond what we promised. We will look at nine, 10, and 11 tomorrow morning, and then we will just briefly show you some historical things in the Baptist Church. I only put that here because I had to work really hard to overcome the notion that to have elders was a Presbyterian thing, and it isn’t. It’s a biblical thing with a lot of history in the Baptist Church. Then we’ll move on through these others.